Is Vrahode a Board Game or an RPG?

We get this question a lot: is Vrahode a board game or an RPG? In this episode, we both answer that question and talk about why that question is so hard to answer in the first place!

Vrahode will be coming to Kickstarter most likely in quarter one of 2024. When that campaign goes live, you will not only be able to buy the core game, Vrahode: The Calteeryn Ascension, but its three expansions as well.

Learn more about Vrahode on the website, Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram.  

Transcript

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Jeff Irving: And I gotta tell you, there are a lot of Dragon roar sound effects out there on the web, and I went through hundreds of them before I found the one that was the Weathervane Games Dragon.  

My name is Jeff Irving, and this is the Vrahode Tavern Podcast. I'm the creator of the Vrahode Game System and in this podcast we're gonna do a deep dive into the lore and gameplay of Vrahode. I'm joined by Brandon Rollins who will be acting as your stand-in, asking many of the questions you might be curious about yourself. 

Brandon, what's the topic for today? 

Is Vrahode a Board Game or an RPG? 

Brandon Rollins: So today's topic, I was thinking, let's just go ahead and answer something that we get a lot of: Is Vrahode an RPG or a board game series? 

Jeff Irving: Hmm, good question. Yeah. Uh, that's one, that's one that I've, I've put on the Vrahode Tavern, I've asked people, um, I've had people wade into, uh, the tavern expecting it to be an RPG and, and then to not quite feel like it was what they hoped. You know, it's been a mix. It's been a real mixed bag and I think, I really feel like it's both. 

Um, there's a couple things missing that would make it, that I think where we could call it a true RPG. And I think that has to do with the player's ability to affect the world a permanent way. Like when you're playing, uh, the, the equivalent in a video game is, can I deform the terrain? You know what I mean? 

And have that leave a lasting mark in the video game, cuz some video games will let you do that. They'll let you, you know, knock a house down. And it'll stay that way. And, and, and so that kind of permanent interaction with the world is kind of a, an earmark of an RPG and players can't really do that in Vrahode. 

Um, and so I think it bumps heavily up against RPG. I think there's a ton of RPG elements and I guess in the purest sense, can you role play while you're playing it? And the answer is absolutely. You can role play. You know, we have all these unique new characters and I hope that when I sit down to play Vrahode with people, they are interested enough in what a Mahorii sounds like to, to do a little voiceover work with their character and, you know, play it out. 

So there's no, there's no reason why you can't role play playing Vrahode at all. Um, but I don't think we can call it a pure died in the wool RPG, so it's definitely a hybrid. 

Brandon Rollins: Yeah, it's interesting because it's like, and RPG, of course, when you're actually using that term to describe something, people have certain expectations about what exactly that means mechanically, but RPGs also like, it's a vibe, it's a feeling, it's a specific kind of, um, experience that you get when you play something. 

It's a feeling of exploring and having agency over your actions and like being able to level up and change things as you go along. And like so much of what you've described with Vrahode, it has that RPG feeling while not strictly speaking, allowing you 100% freedom to explore. But then again, it, it's like what you say, like it's left turn tolerant. 

It'll let you, uh, go in different directions and then eventually, eventually nudge you back onto the main path. 

What RPGs tend to be 

Jeff Irving: Yep. I think the other thing too, you know, that's, you know, RPGs tend to be fantasy or sci-fi settings. That's very typical. We've got, we check that box, like you said, advancement. We check that box, but we don't necessarily do it. We don't have levels, you don't get experience points in, in Vrahode get advancements in skills, you get in advancements in life. 

You get uh, advancements in gear, you get advancements in stats, and you can advance your gear itself. You can augment, uh, things that you purchase. Um, like for example, if you, if you buy a sword and you want to improve, you want to add, uh, the ability for that sword to burn things, you want to heat the blade up, you can buy a bone glyph that you can snap over that sword to enchant it with that ability. 

And then that bone glyph becomes kind of bound to that object that that weapon. And so there's all kinds of advancement in Vrahode. We just don't have raw experience points that are awarded and arbitrary levels that are awarded. And to me that's way more satisfying than doing math and saying, oh, I'm level two. 

No, you quest and through your questing, um, or through procedural play and doing commission tiers, You will receive tangible, consequential advancement in our game series that I think will be very satisfying for you, and it will instantly change how you, um, interact with the world. Um, and that's what I think advancement, when it's most satisfying, it's when you see the change. 

When you feel the change. And, and that's, that's our intent is to have you really feel that, um, tangible advancement, no matter which avenue we're giving it to you in which, like I said, we spread it out over, you know, different criteria. 

Brandon Rollins: Yeah, and I feel like that kind of stuff, having new equipment, having new skills, having things that like tangibly makes a difference, will give people that feeling of progress, that's got that RPG feeling without actually having to, you know, force 'em to do the math. 

Vrahode is DM-optional 

Jeff Irving: The other thing too, I think that, that we look, we find in, in kind of in the industry, is the earmark of an RPG has to do with the Game Master, the DM, right? If, if it is, if it is led by a DM or a GM, well then we think of, we think of games like that as roleplaying games because what you have is you have this kind of storyteller and referee who's not necessarily out to kill you, but they're out to tell you the story, give you the challenges, and see how you, um, you navigate those. 

And I, I, I think our game plays really, really nicely when we call it a GM optional game. Our game does not require a GM or DM. It does not require that at all. Um, however, um, one of the experiments that I did during Genghis Con was to, I sat the players down, um, and we had four in the demo. So we had a pretty good size party. 

I taught them how to play. Then I told them, this game is designed to play itself, and so now I'm gonna leave and let you guys play based on how I taught you. And I left. I left the table, I went to the bathroom. I got something to eat and drink. And I came back just over a half an hour later and I sat down and I said, well, and I asked each of them individually, did you like it better with me here as a GM or did you like it better when you ran the game yourself and they were split right down the middle. 

A couple of the guys said, we liked it better when you were here just because you really described things and you played all the enemies for us. And the other guys said, no, we liked it better when it was just us. And they said, the reason is because we as a group, we had more kind of cohesion in the group as we made decisions on what to do. 

And I think that that that is gonna be the case when people buy the game. If they have somebody that wants to GM, well, sure, go ahead. You can have somebody read the quest. You can have somebody run the enemies, but the game has an AI if-then chart that tells you what the enemies do with no gm, it'll run itself just fine. 

And so I really like this idea of kind of marketing isn't marketing it as GM optional. 

Brandon Rollins: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I think that could be a selling point for people who kind of, i, I mean that can, the possibility of having a GM could pull in your RPG players and they might say, "you know what, okay, this is a close enough crossover to where it might actually still be my thing." Um, whereas you just le, yeah, as long as it's optional, it's like you can still get your traditional board gamers too. 

That could actually work really well. 

Jeff Irving: As much as GMs complain about all the prep work and all the work that they do to... 

Brandon Rollins: Oh, you know, they love it. 

Jeff Irving: Love it. And so when you say GM optional, I think it allows them to play the game and see if they prefer to actually sit down with other people and, and just be a player. Or if they want to play the other side. 

One thing I will tell you is for those people, cuz I was one of them, I had to play the DM most of the time when we were playing D&D and I always planned for A, B and C. You know, you, you, you, you have a certain kind of cone that you hope the players follow, but invariably they're going to take the Q option that you didn't write content for and you didn't prepare for. 

The lovely thing about the Vrahode Game System that it gives us, if, if you want to, you know, play as a GM in our game system, it covers option Q. So you never have a time if you want a GM in our, in our system where you're unprepared because the card decks, the 23 robust card decks that dictate play are there to support you. 

And so you can quest and you can even do campaign work. But if your, if your players want to go off track, away from the campaign for a while or away from the quest, The cards will take you there safely and you'll never feel unprepared. That is fun. I mean, that's, that's a cool option. And I think it's kind of a holy grail, uh, uh, in gaming is that can I play a game system where I can gm, but then if, if I don't ha, if I'm not prepared for something, can it still keep a flow, keep a rhythm? 

And yes, the answer with Vrahode is yes, with, with our card decks, anytime you're unprepared for something or your players go somewhere, you don't expect, the cards will take you there and give you an immersive and fun experience. 

Brandon Rollins: Yeah. And I think that's a good thing because one of the things that can always catch a, a DM off guard is just like when some completely out of the blue action goes totally, totally away from their plans, and they've got no backup and no real system to really help 'em navigate that. So it's just pure improv at that. 

Jeff Irving: Exactly. 

Brandon Rollins: And like if you're a Matt Mercer or something, you can handle it, but most people . 

Jeff Irving: Yeah. But, but let's be honest, how many, how many Matt Mercers are there out among us? You 

Brandon Rollins: Have one. So anyway. 

Jeff Irving: Matt's a bit unique.  

What's left to develop? 

Brandon Rollins: So another thing that's on my mind is what's left in terms of development at this point? 

Jeff Irving: Oh, wow. Let's look. Um, assets are pretty much done. So miniatures are done, dashboards are done, Harbinger is done, which is our 3D terrain system. Um, we're waiting on writing. Um, the core box is pretty much done. We're into the expansions on getting that writing, uh, wrapped up. Um, let's see. Oh, we're starting to think about packaging, you know, so like token trays, card deck, storage trays. 

Um, but no, it's, we kinda started building a relationship with Longpack, um, pretty early on in the process so that we could start to get an idea of how long it was gonna take to get stuff from where we had it to actually being manufacturable and safe to ship without it breaking. And so we've already, we've been in that process for a while now. 

Um, we're into the minis and, and you know, that's an iterative process because you have little thin bits here and there that have to be thickened and things like that. So we're doing that. Trays are coming along. Um, but with all of the assets behind us, It feels really good. Documents. The other documents, other not the, like the campaign and the Quest documents, those are the big ones. 

The smaller documents like the, uh, set up and rule guide and the visitors guide are nearing completion. Um, but no, I feel, I feel really good. The, the big thing that's gonna dictate our launch date is when can we have, you know, at least 25 review copies of the game that give these reviewers a true sense of the core box? 

And that means procedural play through the card decks. That means campaign play, that means, um, quest play on the varying levels of questing that you can do. That's, that's a big bite for us because we have so much writing and so that might facilitate the need for us to push the launch date back to March. 

Which, you know, at, at first that, that thought makes me sad, but I also want the writing and everything to be, um, as complete as everything else that we're doing. So if it needs to happen, it needs to happen. 

Brandon Rollins: And there is, there is still a fair amount of writing to do on that campaign, on the Core Box campaign and Quest Books just because that, like, those are big, you know, the expansions, those honestly, you can just have those drafted. The formatting is what would take a monster time and like you can have them in plain text as PDFs if anyone manages to get past the core box in the review stage, which, good luck with that. 

I know. 

Jeff Irving: If they get past the core box, then they're just hooked. 

Brandon Rollins: Yeah. At that point it's like you've got a 10 out of 10, you know, review. You don't have to worry about what they're gonna think of your expansions. 

Jeff Irving: No, I will tell. I will. I, I would say this though, for, for people that are listening. Um, it, I want it, I want everyone to know that this is, um, at least as far as the risk of us completing this, um, uh, product and bringing it to market, that's a foregone conclusion because at over 300,000 in, uh, of production costs, development costs already, um, you know, seeing this through is, it is going to happen, um, regardless of the success of the, of the initial Kickstarter, sometimes, you know, products take a couple Kickstarters to, to finally realize their potential. 

Um, I don't believe that's gonna be the case with Vrahode. I really think that the upswell of support has been, has been palpable. I mean, I really feel like people are getting behind this product, and so I'm, I'm encouraged, uh, uh, and I feel like, um, we're gonna be able to, to break even, you know, maybe break even, not make any money, but break even on the project and, and put out a, a game that gets a ton of attention and hopefully some accolades, because the accolades tend to be what people respond to with their wallets. 

And then maybe we'll do another Kickstarter later that's a reprint and maybe have some, even some more content for people. 

Development costs 

Brandon Rollins: Yeah, and I, I think the path to making back the development costs, which I didn't know it was quite 300, does that include the injection molds for the... 

Jeff Irving: No, no, the, the cost, the, the cost estimate for the, uh, molds for the series is 150,000. So that would take us to 450, and climbing 450,000. And so, but that keep in mind though, I mean, yes, that's a lot of money, but that's for the series, that's not just for the core box. That's 150,000 for, uh, the Calteeryn Ascension, uh, the Enlightened of the Enslaved, Facing the Storm, and the False God's Deceit. 

Brandon Rollins: And And the pledge manager stuff. 

Jeff Irving: Yes. And the pledge manager. Well, no, there may be a little bit more cost because of some of the pledge managers. No, not really. It's cause I think most of the pledge managers stuff is, eh, maybe a little, maybe a little, but not much. 

Brandon Rollins: Yeah. And then the manufacturing run itself, once you take out the injection mold costs, it's like, you know, it's, um, it's a lot per unit. I forget exactly what it is. It's like 60 for the core box and then like 12, 13 for each expansion. 

Um, it's a formidable, it's a formidable invoice.  

Jeff Irving: Yeah, especially when you think that, you know, shipping's gotta be tacked onto that and everything else. 

Upcoming giveaways 

Jeff Irving: But, um, I don't know. Do you, um, do you wanna talk about any of our giveaways or anything, Brandon, before we go? Or are we done? 

Brandon Rollins: Well, I know that you've got a couple of giveaways coming up. 

Jeff Irving: We're giving away Sword and Sorcery, um, and we're giving away a bunch of expansion packs and accessory packs for that, that's coming up. Um, we're ending our cryptic Explorers, um, Giveaway today. And then as of May 1st, it will be the first month of our, um, shipping assistance giveaways, which we're gonna be doing. 

Um, we're gonna be doing a ship, a shipping assistance giveaway for folks to help offset the worst part of supporting a Kickstarter, which is the shipping.  

And so if you sign up to win every month, we're gonna be giving away, uh, a voucher for your shipping. It will give you $25 off your shipping of the core box. 

It will give you $40 off your shipping of the gameplay all in, and it will give you up to $50 off of your purchase of the master all in. So we're, we are trying to offset the worst part of backing our Vrahode Game System through these giveaways. And so in addition to our, our game giveaways, we'll also be doing these. 

And I think it'll be fun to help as many people as we can between now and launch to, with the worst part, you know, that shipping burden. 

Brandon Rollins: Yeah. And because of just the time it'll take to edit this show and then eventually release it, like this is live right now on social media, so you can go to any Vrahode social and then sign up for that giveaway and get a chance to get your shipping for free. And the Sword & Sorcery is almost certainly gonna be running concurrently too, so you can check that out as well. 

Jeff Irving: And that's a big giveaway. I mean, when you see there's like six... yeah, there's like six boxes in the thing. So it's, it's gonna be a, and we're running, we're running three to 400 people on signups for the giveaways. And so even though that's a lot of people, your chances of winning, um, one of our giveaways is better than a lot of things. It's definitely better than any lottery you could enter. And probably a better odd, uh, better odds than winning in a raffle in most raffles. Cause a lot of raffles get up to five, 600 people, you know. So  

Brandon Rollins: Yeah. If you're listening to this show, you have a surprisingly high chance of winning this thing.  

Early Kickstarter prep 

Brandon Rollins: So, um, I mean, we're already starting to plan for the Kickstarter as well in addition to like giveaways and development and early stuff. Like we are already setting up a preview page that's just private between us. Now, are you willing to share with folks some of the things that you're doing to make this Kickstarter campaign different than the other ones? 

Jeff Irving: Absolutely. Um, first and foremost though, I want to ask you, um, when are we, when do you think Brandon, we're gonna be able to share that preview page with, with potential backers? When are we gonna be able to like, open the doors to that preview? 

Brandon Rollins: My spreadsheet says November, but personally between you and me because like once I get some project management stuff outta the way, I'll be able to work on that, probably like late summer. I mean, we're talking well in advance of the campaign. 

Jeff Irving: Okay, well let's do this then. As far as, uh, you know, you asked me about making it different. I think what's different is we we're being real transparent and if you've been following us on the, um, the Vrahode Facebook page or the group page, the Vrahode Tavern, um, I've been talking to people about that. 

I've been asking them, doing surveys, what do you hate about Kickstarters? And I've been listening to you guys tell me your thoughts on this stuff. And I decided to just be super transparent and say, listen, this is a game system. We want to try to keep the number of boxes to a minimum. Plus people don't like, you know, supporting games where that are such shelf hogs that are 10 plus boxes. 

Um, I've got a few of them on my shelf too, but, um, so we're trying to, um, keep the number of boxes to the core box and the three expansion boxes. And then all of the rewards that we're giving away during the Kickstarter are going into those boxes. So we're not gonna have separate boxes for Kickstarters. Um, does that mean we're gonna have less exclusives? Yes, it does. Um, basically the way this Kickstarter is, is working, is our initial backers are helping us build this game. What we're doing is through your support, what we're trying to do is give what we consider the optimum quantity of each component in this system so that it plays the very best it can. 

And that means like we, we will plan to put in a miniature sculpt in the core box. With your help, we're gonna put three copies of that miniature in the core box instead of one. And that happens a lot. You're able, your, your help is letting us increase the quantity to where we think it's optimum. And so, and also you're helping us include a 3D terrain system in the Vrahode gain system without you having to spend another nickel on a 3D terrain system. 

And everybody knows how expensive those are. So we're actually including this in our series with your help. And so you guys are doing some serious heavy lifting. And the other thing I think that it, we we're doing by virtue of putting all of these, not all of them, but almost all of the rewards into the boxes themselves, is we're also helping if, let's say you played the games and you finished them and you want to sell them down the road, we think that helps resell because if you wanna resell your product later, after you're done with it, Well, it's not just part of the product, it's complete because those rewards want to be in that box. 

I don't know how you feel about that, Brandon, but to me, as a person that backs a ton of Kickstarters, that is refreshing news because it's like, I'm not just, you know that that's what people want. They want everything. And so in order to be able to get that, they can still do it after market. 

Brandon Rollins: Yeah, and I think there's, I think there's kind of a growing backlash against this idea of things that you can only get their Kickstarter and that kind of thing. People like being able to know that they've got the complete set, if they miss the initial campaign or if they just didn't back it all the way, um, that first time around. 

It's like, I, I think that's a good thing. You want this stuff to be accessible. 

Jeff Irving: Yeah. And if we do another Kickstarter for Vrahode later, um, that new content will be self-contained as well. It'll, it'll be its own thing and, and whatever rewards we can give during that campaign. We'll also go into that expansion. It won't be a separate box that gets separated out later and decreases the value. 

Um, so yeah, no, I think, I think it's, it's a different approach. Uh, like we may, the gold coin, the, we had this beautiful, uh, Calteeryn coin, metal coin that we're giving during the campaign. That may be an exclusive. Um, and then, um, I'm trying to think if there's, there was something else I was thinking of that might be an exclusive, that's the only one that comes to mind. 

But again, it's, we're trying to keep things contained in those boxes so that we don't have a shelf hog on our hands. You know,  

Just, it's something that, uh, it fits n uh, fits nice together as a set. In other words, the core box width and, and depth, not the height of it. You know, the height of that is determined by the contents, but the width and the depth of those boxes, the core box and all three expansions will be the same. 

And so those will look great on a shelf. It won't be all these different size boxes. 

The only thing that'll change of each of those boxes as they're stacked, they're book ended, is the, is the height. 

Kallax or nah? 

Brandon Rollins: Yeah, and I think that helps with like, as far as collectors are concerned, it's gonna be neat. It's gonna be relatively compact compared to other games like it, and you're still gonna have all the good stuff in there. 

Jeff Irving: it will, but we realize we are not conformists, we're not making a game to fit in your Kallax shelving. To us, the important thing is, is that we're delivering a game system and a game product that is designed. From beginning to end to be the games that we want to play and the games we want to play don't fit in Kallax shelving. 

They can fit on top, they can sit next to, but our boxes are 18.25 by 18.25 by X. And we make no apologies for that. For the people that are, are a little bit OCD and everything has to fit in their Kallax. Well, sorry. If that's the case, if you buy your games based on what fits in your shelving, Vrahode may not be the product for you. 

Brandon Rollins: Right. And I, I think that's kind of a silly thing because it's just, it's very, very strange to me to think that a single line of IKEA furniture is determining what sizes people are willing to buy.  

Jeff Irving: Exa I think that's a very backward way to think about it. Is it lovely? Is it lovely to have a wall of Kallax that you're, uh, full of games that you're proud of? Absolutely. But if you have a wall of games in your Kallax and you have this one on top that you play most often because it just so happens to be an amazing game. 

Well, Vrahode would rather be that. 

Brandon Rollins: Right? Yeah, I hear you on. 

Jeff Irving: Yeah. I mean, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna fit our game into Kallax just because that's what IKEA does. 

Brandon Rollins: Oh man, it's such a thing cuz you know that like Wayfair and everybody else is imitating that too. 

But, uh, no, honestly, I feel like. I feel like really, really hardcore gamers have their own kind of set up where they account for the fact that some stuff's not gonna fit in Kallax. Like you can set it up, they're 11 inch squares. 

You can set it up to where you, you arrange 'em, where you've got a big 22 by 22 opening. You know... 

Jeff Irving: Yeah, you can, especially some of the nicer stuff. I mean, Kallax is just a brand name. Um, there's a lot of really cool shelving systems out there that are, that are way more flexible and the, the idea that you can bookend, um, and all three of its expansion and, and have them look really cool together as a set in a larger opening. 

I mean, I'm really, I'm fine with that. 

Brandon Rollins: Yeah,  

Jeff Irving: So,  

Brandon Rollins: you.  

Jeff Irving: yeah.  

Brandon Rollins: I say that as somebody who's basically sitting in front of a whole bunch of Kallax. 

Jeff Irving: Yeah. Oh yeah. It's, it's common. I mean, a lot of people have it.  

Full trailer video coming soon 

Jeff Irving: Um, the other thing I wanted to mention real quick, um, just, just for excitement, it's probably going to have been released by the time this video hits. Or this podcast hits, I mean, is the release of our full trailer. 

Everybody's has been talking and asking about this full trailer. 

Cause our, our teaser trailer was very well received. Um, the full trailer, which is being produced by Mesa Game Lab, David Diaz, we're waiting, he is really close to done. Um, he's waiting on a shot from me to finish the last shot in the video. And that is, I'm gonna do a zoom through with my phone of a five level deep Harbinger dungeon so that he can include that kind of shot in the video. 

And so, hopefully, hopefully David will be able to see what I'm doing with my phone and interpret it with all of the stuff that he has to build this, you know, construct this five level deep CGI dungeon for you guys for the trailer, which I think will make people lose their minds. 

Brandon Rollins: That, I think that'll be awesome. 

Jeff Irving: Yeah. 

Brandon Rollins: And yes, you asked, we answered, we're removing the chant. 

Jeff Irving: Vrahode. Vrahode. I liked it. I'm sorry. I mean, well, you know when you come up with a game.  

Brandon Rollins: Told you to do it because I want people here in that fantasy word, and I want them to be Googling it. 

Jeff Irving: You have to, you have to drive.  

Brandon Rollins: That repetition. 

Jeff Irving: You have to drive that word home because no  

Brandon Rollins: Mm-hmm.  

Jeff Irving: heard it. 

Brandon Rollins: And the thing is, we, we knew that was never gonna make the final cut. It's never gonna make the final trailer. But we, like, we literally just need to get search traffic up for the name. 

Jeff Irving: My favorite part of the tr of the teaser video and my favorite part of the full trailer video is this is going to be the same. And that is at the end of the video you get to see the Weathervane Games logo and you get to hear the dragon roar. That took me half of a day to find the perfect one. And you get to see that at the, you get to hear that at the end of the full trailer as well. 

And I gotta tell you, there are a lot of dragon roar sound effects out there on the web, and I went through hundreds of them before I found the one that was the Weathervane Games Dragon. 

Brandon Rollins: I had no idea you were an expert in this  

Jeff Irving: I, well, I will not tell you the name of our Weathervane Games dragon, but we will do a contest and the person that guesses the Vrahode, uh, I mean the Weathervane Games dragon's name, We'll win a really cool prize. 

Brandon Rollins: Oh my gosh. Okay. That's pretty compelling. 

Jeff Irving: Yeah. I'm thinking about maybe giving away, um, the person that guesses the name of the we, the Weatherman Games Dragon, will get a copy of the Enlightened Heroes Pack, which is the Tricked Out Minis and new hero cards. That, that is a pledge manager item. It's a, it's like a $50 value, but I think we'll do a contest and whoever guesses the, the first person, I have to say the first person, because a bunch of people might get it. 

Um, but the, the first person to guess it correctly will, will win a copy of The Enlightened Heroes Pack. Boom. 

Brandon Rollins: Awesome. So yeah, that's a little Easter egg for anybody listening. 

Jeff Irving: Yep. 

Brandon Rollins: All  

Jeff Irving: That's all. That's all I have, Brandon. 

Brandon Rollins: Yeah, I think that's all I've got for today. So we'll come up with something interesting for the next one. But for the time being, do you wanna go ahead and take us out? 

Jeff Irving: Sounds good. 

Thank you for listening to the Vrahode Tavern Podcast. If you enjoyed this show, take a moment to subscribe anywhere you get your podcasts. And if you're on Apple Podcasts, please leave a five star review. It helps more than you know. 

You can learn more about Vrahode on vrahode.com. That's V R A H O D E.Com. Link in the show notes. You can also find us on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram, where we are @Vrahode. Thank you again for listening. We really appreciate it. Keep an eye out for our next episode in two weeks.